I’ve fallen behind on my reading of all the posts I follow, and my inbox proudly boasts 2889 new emails. At some point, I’m going to have to acknowledge defeat.
Chef and I spent all day yesterday, and all night, travelling and visiting with friends. We arrived home this morning at 7 am and we’re happily tired. A quick blog check mocked me with pages of comments to be read, approved, and replied to… While I’m overcome by awe that there are so many people talking to me, I’m overwhelmed by the sheer numbers. So, I thought I’d let you guys know that I’m working my way through them…Please be patient.
I have some ideas rolling around in my head about stuff to write, but I am not going to get all heavy today. Nor am I in the mood to describe the near-death armadillo motorcycle story from last night either. Instead, I’d share some excerpts from one of the many conversations I’m engaged in right now.
And, it’ll prove that I can indeed have a civil conversation without flipping out this week, I’m posting the following from here. Plus, he makes some pretty common arguments which I think we all should know how to answer, especially, it seems, in Blogospere..
Me: I’m in complete agreement with rowangirl. A person is not defined by their sin…they are a person struggling with a sin, just like everyone else. In my opinion, science has proved nothing to support gay copulation. It produces no life, which is scientifically what sex was designed for. Thank you for inviting our opinions and providing a civil atmosphere to discuss this topic.
Writer: Is it truly a sin if they had no say in the matter? Like an earlier comment stated, a gay person is no more in control of their sexuality than a person is with the colour of their skin. It is often said that God created us in his image. I’d love a quote from the Bible that says being gay is wrong.
Also as a comment stated (think it may have been the same one) the Bible is thousands of years old, how do people still think it applies today in the exact way it was created, as the planet matures and as a race we grow surely must peoples morals.
Me: You pose very good questions, Daniel. However, I have learned that these arguments go round and round but never answer anyone to their satisfaction. I don’t find that science has proved that there is no God, or that people are born gay. You don’t accept that the bible is true…So, we’re at an impasse. The bible says in many places homosexuality is a sin. It also says that without being saved, the words in the bible are foolishness to man. See? There is no winning the battle without someone having an open mind. I won’t..I believe in God 100% and His Word..and you won’t either…the book is foolishness to you. It is that same book that tells Christians not to be running around judging people…and that includes homosexuals. If science is all we’re looking for here, than maybe a repulsion to homosexuality is an instinct…I don’t say that to agree with it, but science is just too random to be used as proof in all this.
Here is another one:
Jeffsong: I would be remiss if I didn’t comment to this. I wasn’t healed until I embraced Satan as one of God’s children and came to Love him as well. One of the Lord’s fallen angels – much like we are. He doesn’t bother us much any more (Satan, that is) because he has become one of ‘our brothers’. Took that to end the war in me.
Me: I’m going to respectfully disagree with your position. First, people are not fallen angels. We are humans, and we are not going to die and go to heaven as angels. Second, I hate satan. I hate everything satan does. I hate everything that satan tries to destroy and everything he represents. Most importantly, Satan is waging this entire war against Jesus, who I love. I would never insult my friend by embracing his enemy. Satan is anti-Christian and anti-human. He hates you and he hates me. You can’t “love” or “embrace” him back into the family…My guess is that he leaves you alone because you are actually being tricked, by him, into a position that renders you ineffective to the kingdom of God. Why bother harassing someone when they aren’t dangerous at all? Or even worse, actually working for the enemy to further the enemy agenda? Sorry. Just can’t embrace this reasoning at all…
Jeffsong: But you see – I forgive him all that. Everything. I have no hatred towards him at all, though I used to — which lead to a lot of self-hate, doubt, etc. All man’s evils. It wasn’t until I figured it all out that I could actually be at peace with myself – and him and God. Everything. I have no hatred towards him at all, though I used to — which lead to a lot of self-hate, doubt, etc. All man’s evils. It wasn’t until I figured it all out that I could actually be at peace with myself – and him and God. And (wry smile) – if you want to believe, just look up my references about my trip to Puerto Rico. I had a really strange experience there last year; sorta kidnapped, held captive; lost 35 pounds in 14 days; walked 3 days . . . lots of things. And it was the happiest week of my life – I met God, talked to Him; he showed me a lot of things. Jesus Christ is just one of them.
The truth is: we are all God’s children – and more. There is a truth out there that . . . well, you’ll see. I’m not into pushing my beliefs at all; not if you don’t want to hear them – and I feel if you are comfortable in your belief and system – are happy with joy – that’s good. I don’t want to disturb that. But anger is not happiness at all; neither is hate. Those are the wrong kinds of emotions to feel – even towards someone as bad as Satan. I feel only pity and sympathy for him; I have seen his side. But he’s okay with me and I with him – and he doesn’t bother tempting me anymore. Doesn’t do any good.
You know that old Christian saying? “Hate the sin, not the Sinner”. Well, ditto the same thing towards Satan. That’s not to say I don’t get angry about – well, a lot. But a lot of what I get angry about is human stupidity; not something Satan is doing. People have a choice – and it’s up to them to make it. Deep in their hearts they know right from wrong – and if some of them pay some kind of penalty in the end? (shrug) Well, I don’t believe in an eternal hell, either; I don’t believe God is that way – I’m thinking He’s a lot wiser than that. He’s just gonna keep Teaching us some lessons – until we finally learn. Get your lessons down right and maybe you got a chance to go on to “heaven”; otherwise you’re just doomed to keep repeating them until you get ‘em down. But I think God loves his children – every one of us, all life forms – way too much to do that.
‘inside’ . . . and you can see God. He’s a lot like us (in my opinion) and free will was given just to see what we’d do with it. I don’t think he “knows everything” – not about people. It’s his form of entertainment to kinda keep things interesting. After all: everything else is predictable; at least the mathematics are. Billard balls all bounce the same. However, this “free choice” thing – kinda adds a dice in the equation, don’t you think? “He” (our living God) . . . well, he’s got a wry sense of humor, I think – making us make the decision ourselves – and sometimes between ‘two wrongs’ (which way will you go?) . . .
I do know this: my “God” is not some static god who stands like a frozen statue in the universe. He’s a dynamic humorous being full of love, humor, and ‘being good’ – but he gives ‘us’ the choice – and the Devil is just there to tempt us. The rest? Nature and things. Physics, and what ‘we’ve’ done to the planet. Just a natural course, written in the rocks and stones much as the dinosaurs are.Love and forgiveness is what it’s all about I seem to recall someone saying – maybe it was Jesus Christ? Or was it God? Never mind; they are both one and the same and ‘my’ religion leaves me feeling good all over (truly and physically right here – a nice and tingly feeling thinking about it) – and is like a brightly singing light inside.
On this last one, I have not answered yet because I haven’t had enough time to really go over the comment and give it the attention it deserves..
51 responses to “I Need to take a Course in Speed Reading…”
I logged in this morning and had 80+ emails. I cannot remember how many. Part three is up now, and I too need a course in speed reading. I could not imagine have thousands. It would be overwhelming.
lol.. I didn’t mean you!! I meant the sites that keep posting article after article after article, all with in an hour of each other…Not a couple of comments!
Hi, I thought I would comment on here after seeing the link to my blog, hope you don’t mind (:
Regarding science proving there is no God, I don’t think that science has and I hope it didn’t come across this way. My father says it best, “you can never prove God DOESN’T exist, you can only ever prove that he does” for example if we haven’t proven something there’s no way of knowing if that’s just because we haven’t found the right way of proving it.
Obviously this theory can apply to anything for example Aliens, (although that is another thing all together if you want to know my views just let me know aha). About people being born gay, I believe it is either they are born gay or they are gay through social conditioning, either way I don’t think it is a choice. Out of interest, what do you believe the reason for people being gay is? Do you believe Satan has made them that way? And if so if it is Satan’s doing, then surely the gay person has no more choice than if he were born gay?
Also, I don’t think the Bible is foolish at all, whilst I can’t say I have ever read it from start to finish I know some of the stories, and to me they are comparable to fables, which as you know, have a moral behind them.
For example the story from which I am named, Daniel. That teaches bravery and courage. To me the story of Noah and the Ark is about acceptance of all “breeds” (ie, species, races, genders). And obviously there are the ten commandments, where 6 of those apply to me to be nice as a person. So you see, the book isn’t foolish at all it teaches some really great things. Just the “higher meaning” of it doesn’t apply to me, because I’m a non believer (also I’m curios, as a non-believer does that mean I am sinning for not believing? I have always been led to believe that non believers, come the end of time (armageddon) that God will reveal himself to us and give the people who don’t believe a chance to repent, you’ll have to forgive me I am really uneducated when it comes to religion).
“It is that same book that tells Christians not to be running around judging people…and that includes homosexuals” I’m glad you agree it is quite contradictory, so what do you do in that situation, is it a matter of personal judgement whether you want to judge a gay person or not?
Your last statement, about Science being random. To me Science is a core thing to this world, without science we wouldn’t have things to cure diseases, to help injured people. We wouldn’t have the computers we sit and blog on or the television we watch our favorite programs on. Of course Science is random, and that is the beauty of it, (It sounds like I worship science now aha, I can assure you that’s not the case). Obviously there are downsides to sciene too, don’t get me wrong. For example atomic bombs, guns etc, all come from science too. I wasn’t using science as proof, just as a form of evidence.
Sorry for such a long post aha! I’m just finding this very intriguing, the only person I have to talk about religion with is my mother, and we don’t get any perfectly well as it is let alone when we discuss religion!
if you want to know the answers to all of those questions you should research it. thats how i arrived at my conclusion. now, i have no need to ask others or pick and choose my beliefs on a whim. why trust someone else with something that has such a huge effect on you?
the only sin a non-believer can be convicted of is the sin of not believing jesus died for you. you won’t feel like anything else is a sin. that one will bother you though. thats because jesus is the part that makes everything else make sense
I’ll add a colder perspective. The bible says burning a bull on the altar as a sacrifice creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9.
It says selling your daughter into slavery is sanctioned- Exodus 21:7
It says men are not allowed contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24
Lev. 25:44 states that one may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.
Exodus 35:2 clearly states that people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.
Eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10
Lev. 21:20 states that one may not approach the altar of God if one has a defect in one’s sight.
Lev. 19:27 trimming the hair around one’s temples is expressly forbidden.
I could go on and on about absurd things the bible says, but I feel it isn’t necessary. Freedom of religion is the freedom for every citizen to apply the tenets of whatever religion to THEIR OWN LIFE. It’s certainly not the freedom to impose a religion you follow on another person. If we go by the faulty logic being used to attack same-sex unions the logical next step is to outlaw all non-christian marriages. that includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists.
As to the born/bred nature of homosexuality I can add some scientific perspective. Although we don’t know conclusively the levels of genetic influence we do know gay brains react differently to sex hormones: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0510_050510_gayscent_2.html
We also know there is a genetic pattern of the mothers of gay men being more fertile than the paternal mothers-in-law as proved by a study done in the University of Padova by Andrea Camperio-Ciani: http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2008/06/18-01.html
The evidence for a genetic link is quite substantial and although it may not prove causality, it definitely proves biological differences between homo and hetero-sexuals
But, even then, even if we allow that there could be some sort of “choice” taking place. My position is that each individual is free to make their own choice. If sexuality is a choice, you’re not going to choose for me. I’m going to choose for myself.
Ok. Jesus says He came to fulfill the Law of the Old Testament, and gentiles follow the New Law. How about (I Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; Ephesians 5:3,I Corinthians 6:9; 10. Paul doesn’t single out just homosexuality, either. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. Should these all be considered okay too, as there are definite genetic factors found in fornication, idolatry, thievery, addiction, temper, etc?
No one had the right to tell you what your choice should be. When I chose to accept Christ as my Lord, I willingly gave up my given right to make these choices for myself, and instead am trying to defeat my flesh so that my choices are good, according to the Word of God. I don’t have the right to tell you or anyone else what to do with your life. By that same argument, though, you can not make me choose to believe that being gay is not a sin, anymore than you can make be believe fornication, adultery, idolatry, etc. are not sins. I am genetically prone to addiction, and my past makes me more prone to adultery and fornication. But I’m not doing these things because Jesus has dealt with me about them, except for the addiction to cigarettes, which I’m still not winning at. So, should Jesus make an exception for the cigarettes? Or should I continue to try to quit?
You’re comparing the consenting sexual behaviour of two adults with thievery and addiction? That means you’re starting with a false equivalency.
I totally respect your right to believe in Christianity and the concept of sin. My only issue is when people try to apply their beliefs to the lives of others. For example, a Muslim believes that women not covering their heads with a scarf is a sin, but should they go around pointing at women in the street and telling them they’re sinners?
Orthodox Jews, like Muslims, don’t eat pork- and I’d really hate to be eating my BLT and have somebody telling me that it’s wrong.
My theory is that if somebody believes something is a sin, then they shouldn’t do it, but they shouldn’t interfere with the lives of people who don’t share in that belief.
And if anyone, and I mean ANYONE, ever tries to interfere with my bacon consumption, there will be war!
False equivalency…no offense, but I’ll just stop this conversation right there. This subject is littered to death with people using faulty science and tortured logic to make an argument for their cause. I don’t like to bother with them, because I’m much more matter of fact than that. I’m not using false equivalency in my argument..the Bible is. Do you accept the Bible as truth? If you don’t, than we have no point of reference to argue from, and thus should leave the subject alone.
Don’t try cluttering up a simple argument about opposing opinions of two people with quotes and references of other people’s opinions and other religions…they mean nothing to me. I’m quoting the New Law…what is your answer for these scriptures. And I would join you in your war about bacon, because I love it!
I’ll explain what I mean in a different way. I used the term false equivalency meaning that comparing an act that causes harm and another that doesn’t cause harm is an unjust comparison.
I’m not trying to clutter up the argument, I’m saying you want your religion to be the reference for behaviour in a world, but you live in a country where people are free to choose to be part of any (other) religion.
As a historian, I see the bible in very different terms than other people. It was a document that was put together over a period of time surrounding the first council of Nicaea. Many Catholics (they were all Catholics at that point), contributed to the process of compiling, editing and voting on what would be a part of it. In other words I consider it the creation of men (women weren’t allowed to participate in choosing what would go in and what would be excluded).
People saw the world in a very different way then. Eating shellfish was prohibited because it was dangerous. Now we know how to do it so we don’t die of food poisoning. We also know that it’s the earth that orbits the sun even though people were persecuted for saying that as it went against what the bible says.
All that being said, I think it’s okay that you call it a book of “truth”, because there are good messages, the problem is taking it literally. There’s a very good site that talks about all this: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm
When I became a Christian in America and got my New American Standard Bible, God knew all this. I am not going to complicate my walk with Him by second guessing translations or trying to twist and turn perfectly straight-forward directions to make them fit what I want. I’m just going to accept the bible, practice my religion, and I guess time will tell if I did the right thing or not.
As for you, it is obvious that you don’t accept Christianity at all. The bible tells me that it’s words are foolishness to those not saved, so I won’t argue about this any more. It isn’t a fair debate and we’ll just end up getting on each other’s nerves.
I promise I was trying to irritate you! I just think that everyone needs to take a step back and let each person choose their own way in life. Kind of in the same way you’re letting your daughter do her own thing, despite what the annoying counselor thinks you should do 😀
lol..Do you mean you’re not trying to irritate me? I am not irritated with you..just the topic was brought up on my site, so I guess I don’t really understand how I wasn’t letting other people think what they want.. I don’t presume to know what you or anyone else should be doing with your life. I’m only answering what I believe. 🙂
Good for you!! My mother’s family is Italian and used to be very Catholic. Most of the younger generations now, though, are non-denominational also. I kind of miss the reverence of the Catholic church though.. 🙂 I think I want a rosary!!
So funny, I’m Italian, and yes, you are right about the younger generation! I did convert to Lutheran, but I don’t like when they all interpret His word in their own ways. So I’m a non-denominational Christian who still loves rosaries! LOL
LOL!! Two non-denominational Italians who love rosaries…How cool is that? My birthday is coming up a month and a half…guess what I’m going to ask for ??
I go through and sort by the name as opposed to date, delete every one that is a comment notification on the same page except for one.
Sort to date again and search for ‘liked’ and delete everyone of them, because you’ll see the likes in the commented pages (i mean what page has no-one commented on?)
It took me just over 2 months to unsubscribe from all those junk emails that I’m interested in but never buy from. I stopped all notifications from social media and will be informed when I have the chance to log in (cut the emails in half)..
Re: Born gay..
IT was proved back in 2007 from genes, bodily growth and brain functions that people were born gay. Further studies later also proved others (Whilst many were choice) were ‘Environmentally Imprinted’ factors that were not by birth, but were still not by choice.
I remember sitting down and reviewing a 13 page paper to ensure it was unbias from a studying science student and a devout Christian. You could read the struggle in his acceptance of something he quoted from one of his preists(or something) the “Elton John will go to hell because he is gay.”
His scientific conclusion led to that that “The judgement from the human race is a sin more frowned upon than that of a unpreventable symptoms, and only God will know the truth in which homosexual and the only judgement that should be made, should be from God himself.” (not quoted word for word, it’s been 2 years since I read it, but it’s close enough)
Keeping in mind that though the cases also proved that a percentage were by choice, it was lower than the latter which were not a choice.
Those were the facts presented to me, later he quoted Thomas Aquinas as I habded him back the paper. “Every judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that he who acts against his conscience always sins. ”
To which I replied “Judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement”… “We can go for a drive this weekend and go to a gay bar where you can express your opinions freely, or we can go fishing like planned and we talk about fish.”
“The fish won’t judge me in return, at least not directly.”
I’m going to have to do what you did..this email stuff is making me crazy. Thanks for the suggestion.
As for being born gay — I hope I did not give the impression that I think all gay people are going to hell. I absolutely do not think that at all.
God said not to judge each other because we don’t know each others hearts. I take this to mean that we don’t know the genetics, environmental factors, etc. that lead a person to do what they do. Jesus does.
They”re finding out now that there are a lot of sins that people may be genetically prone to…addiction, stealing, lying, etc. Are all these okay, too, because we are genetically inclined to do them?
The bible says that those who accept Christ are saved. From that time on, we spend our lives being refined, like gold, and different sins are addressed by God. In the end, when we die, we are still filthy with sins. Only when we are separated from this flesh will we truly be completely sin-free.
I don’t really understand how people ignore I Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; Ephesians 5:3, or Leviticus 18:22, which clearly tells us what God thinks of homosexuality. Is it that people want to tell God to change His mind? Is it the creation telling the Creator He is wrong?
1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God
1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Romans 12:17-21 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (18) If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. (19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
^^
All also tells us what God thinks of Judgement.
There are many parts where the lord also says that women shall hold their tongue.
Ie, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
or
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
How far do we take these words of the Lord and what do we deem as sin?
I usually do not get into religious arguements stating what is right and what is wrong, what is translated correctly or not. It truly changes the opinions of people
Out of the 80 books (66 in the english version) which should Christians truly follow? Should Christians pick out what they deem is suitable for todays society, what suits our life style? Or should Christians truly accept the traditional ways? Which leads every argument (without debunking a religion) to know it is never our place to judge those fellow brothers and sisters of the same faith, other faiths or no faith faith. But it is truly only the Lord’s place to know where the judgement shall lay, and to judge (make God’s decision?) of others, is it the creation telling the Creator who is worthy or not?
PS. I really respect your stance, and I don’t think less or better of your because of your POV and I genuinely enjoy these conversation / debates, win or lose because I learn more…
It’s the tunnel teachings of all religions that gets to me… That and religion is a touchy subject, It is nearly as bad on debating whether or not a way of parenting is the right way.
I respect you asking questions and I don’t mind when people question my religion..I learned a long time ago that God can handle His own credentials. That being said, I think I’ll write a post that truly reflects what I, Bird, think about homosexuality and judgments made against those that struggle with this. That way, you can see that I would never judge anyone about what they struggle with…I’ll even dedicate it to you…lol. The Bible is clear on it’s stance about this, but it is also clear about what was done to purge us from ALL of our sins, this one included… 🙂
Everyone Has A Story... Again 
51 responses to “I Need to take a Course in Speed Reading…”
I logged in this morning and had 80+ emails. I cannot remember how many. Part three is up now, and I too need a course in speed reading. I could not imagine have thousands. It would be overwhelming.
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I’m way overwhelmed. I am making my way through, but people keep writing as fast as I can read…lol..
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I will be quiet then until you get caught up.
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lol.. I didn’t mean you!! I meant the sites that keep posting article after article after article, all with in an hour of each other…Not a couple of comments!
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Aha oops, that’ll be me! I was going to pace out my posts today but they all seemed to take me by surprise when I wrote them aha.
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Hi, I thought I would comment on here after seeing the link to my blog, hope you don’t mind (:
Regarding science proving there is no God, I don’t think that science has and I hope it didn’t come across this way. My father says it best, “you can never prove God DOESN’T exist, you can only ever prove that he does” for example if we haven’t proven something there’s no way of knowing if that’s just because we haven’t found the right way of proving it.
Obviously this theory can apply to anything for example Aliens, (although that is another thing all together if you want to know my views just let me know aha). About people being born gay, I believe it is either they are born gay or they are gay through social conditioning, either way I don’t think it is a choice. Out of interest, what do you believe the reason for people being gay is? Do you believe Satan has made them that way? And if so if it is Satan’s doing, then surely the gay person has no more choice than if he were born gay?
Also, I don’t think the Bible is foolish at all, whilst I can’t say I have ever read it from start to finish I know some of the stories, and to me they are comparable to fables, which as you know, have a moral behind them.
For example the story from which I am named, Daniel. That teaches bravery and courage. To me the story of Noah and the Ark is about acceptance of all “breeds” (ie, species, races, genders). And obviously there are the ten commandments, where 6 of those apply to me to be nice as a person. So you see, the book isn’t foolish at all it teaches some really great things. Just the “higher meaning” of it doesn’t apply to me, because I’m a non believer (also I’m curios, as a non-believer does that mean I am sinning for not believing? I have always been led to believe that non believers, come the end of time (armageddon) that God will reveal himself to us and give the people who don’t believe a chance to repent, you’ll have to forgive me I am really uneducated when it comes to religion).
“It is that same book that tells Christians not to be running around judging people…and that includes homosexuals” I’m glad you agree it is quite contradictory, so what do you do in that situation, is it a matter of personal judgement whether you want to judge a gay person or not?
Your last statement, about Science being random. To me Science is a core thing to this world, without science we wouldn’t have things to cure diseases, to help injured people. We wouldn’t have the computers we sit and blog on or the television we watch our favorite programs on. Of course Science is random, and that is the beauty of it, (It sounds like I worship science now aha, I can assure you that’s not the case). Obviously there are downsides to sciene too, don’t get me wrong. For example atomic bombs, guns etc, all come from science too. I wasn’t using science as proof, just as a form of evidence.
Sorry for such a long post aha! I’m just finding this very intriguing, the only person I have to talk about religion with is my mother, and we don’t get any perfectly well as it is let alone when we discuss religion!
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if you want to know the answers to all of those questions you should research it. thats how i arrived at my conclusion. now, i have no need to ask others or pick and choose my beliefs on a whim. why trust someone else with something that has such a huge effect on you?
the only sin a non-believer can be convicted of is the sin of not believing jesus died for you. you won’t feel like anything else is a sin. that one will bother you though. thats because jesus is the part that makes everything else make sense
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Absolutely correct, Bek!
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I wrote this for you and a couple of my other readers…I hope this makes how I feel clear.. 🙂
https://birdmartin.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/how-important-is-sin-when-you-love-someone/
— bird
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[…] article was on Birds blog. On this post there is also her reply to someone else about Satan that is very interesting to […]
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I’ll add a colder perspective. The bible says burning a bull on the altar as a sacrifice creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9.
It says selling your daughter into slavery is sanctioned- Exodus 21:7
It says men are not allowed contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24
Lev. 25:44 states that one may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.
Exodus 35:2 clearly states that people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.
Eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10
Lev. 21:20 states that one may not approach the altar of God if one has a defect in one’s sight.
Lev. 19:27 trimming the hair around one’s temples is expressly forbidden.
I could go on and on about absurd things the bible says, but I feel it isn’t necessary. Freedom of religion is the freedom for every citizen to apply the tenets of whatever religion to THEIR OWN LIFE. It’s certainly not the freedom to impose a religion you follow on another person. If we go by the faulty logic being used to attack same-sex unions the logical next step is to outlaw all non-christian marriages. that includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists.
As to the born/bred nature of homosexuality I can add some scientific perspective. Although we don’t know conclusively the levels of genetic influence we do know gay brains react differently to sex hormones: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0510_050510_gayscent_2.html
We also know there is a genetic pattern of the mothers of gay men being more fertile than the paternal mothers-in-law as proved by a study done in the University of Padova by Andrea Camperio-Ciani: http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2008/06/18-01.html
The evidence for a genetic link is quite substantial and although it may not prove causality, it definitely proves biological differences between homo and hetero-sexuals
But, even then, even if we allow that there could be some sort of “choice” taking place. My position is that each individual is free to make their own choice. If sexuality is a choice, you’re not going to choose for me. I’m going to choose for myself.
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Ok. Jesus says He came to fulfill the Law of the Old Testament, and gentiles follow the New Law. How about (I Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; Ephesians 5:3,I Corinthians 6:9; 10. Paul doesn’t single out just homosexuality, either. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. Should these all be considered okay too, as there are definite genetic factors found in fornication, idolatry, thievery, addiction, temper, etc?
No one had the right to tell you what your choice should be. When I chose to accept Christ as my Lord, I willingly gave up my given right to make these choices for myself, and instead am trying to defeat my flesh so that my choices are good, according to the Word of God. I don’t have the right to tell you or anyone else what to do with your life. By that same argument, though, you can not make me choose to believe that being gay is not a sin, anymore than you can make be believe fornication, adultery, idolatry, etc. are not sins. I am genetically prone to addiction, and my past makes me more prone to adultery and fornication. But I’m not doing these things because Jesus has dealt with me about them, except for the addiction to cigarettes, which I’m still not winning at. So, should Jesus make an exception for the cigarettes? Or should I continue to try to quit?
Thank you for the comment.
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You’re comparing the consenting sexual behaviour of two adults with thievery and addiction? That means you’re starting with a false equivalency.
I totally respect your right to believe in Christianity and the concept of sin. My only issue is when people try to apply their beliefs to the lives of others. For example, a Muslim believes that women not covering their heads with a scarf is a sin, but should they go around pointing at women in the street and telling them they’re sinners?
Orthodox Jews, like Muslims, don’t eat pork- and I’d really hate to be eating my BLT and have somebody telling me that it’s wrong.
My theory is that if somebody believes something is a sin, then they shouldn’t do it, but they shouldn’t interfere with the lives of people who don’t share in that belief.
And if anyone, and I mean ANYONE, ever tries to interfere with my bacon consumption, there will be war!
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False equivalency…no offense, but I’ll just stop this conversation right there. This subject is littered to death with people using faulty science and tortured logic to make an argument for their cause. I don’t like to bother with them, because I’m much more matter of fact than that. I’m not using false equivalency in my argument..the Bible is. Do you accept the Bible as truth? If you don’t, than we have no point of reference to argue from, and thus should leave the subject alone.
Don’t try cluttering up a simple argument about opposing opinions of two people with quotes and references of other people’s opinions and other religions…they mean nothing to me. I’m quoting the New Law…what is your answer for these scriptures. And I would join you in your war about bacon, because I love it!
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I’ll explain what I mean in a different way. I used the term false equivalency meaning that comparing an act that causes harm and another that doesn’t cause harm is an unjust comparison.
I’m not trying to clutter up the argument, I’m saying you want your religion to be the reference for behaviour in a world, but you live in a country where people are free to choose to be part of any (other) religion.
As a historian, I see the bible in very different terms than other people. It was a document that was put together over a period of time surrounding the first council of Nicaea. Many Catholics (they were all Catholics at that point), contributed to the process of compiling, editing and voting on what would be a part of it. In other words I consider it the creation of men (women weren’t allowed to participate in choosing what would go in and what would be excluded).
People saw the world in a very different way then. Eating shellfish was prohibited because it was dangerous. Now we know how to do it so we don’t die of food poisoning. We also know that it’s the earth that orbits the sun even though people were persecuted for saying that as it went against what the bible says.
All that being said, I think it’s okay that you call it a book of “truth”, because there are good messages, the problem is taking it literally. There’s a very good site that talks about all this: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm
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When I became a Christian in America and got my New American Standard Bible, God knew all this. I am not going to complicate my walk with Him by second guessing translations or trying to twist and turn perfectly straight-forward directions to make them fit what I want. I’m just going to accept the bible, practice my religion, and I guess time will tell if I did the right thing or not.
As for you, it is obvious that you don’t accept Christianity at all. The bible tells me that it’s words are foolishness to those not saved, so I won’t argue about this any more. It isn’t a fair debate and we’ll just end up getting on each other’s nerves.
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I promise I was trying to irritate you! I just think that everyone needs to take a step back and let each person choose their own way in life. Kind of in the same way you’re letting your daughter do her own thing, despite what the annoying counselor thinks you should do 😀
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lol..Do you mean you’re not trying to irritate me? I am not irritated with you..just the topic was brought up on my site, so I guess I don’t really understand how I wasn’t letting other people think what they want.. I don’t presume to know what you or anyone else should be doing with your life. I’m only answering what I believe. 🙂
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LOL OOPS I did mean I wasn’t 😀
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I know…I was just playing with you!!
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I wrote this for you and a couple of my other readers…I hope this makes how I feel clear.. 🙂
https://birdmartin.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/how-important-is-sin-when-you-love-someone/
Hope this ends this debate… I want nothing bad for you.
— bird
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I don’t even look at my old email address anymore. I just started a new one.
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I’m sitting on a life raft in the sea of email posts…. 🙂
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Bird. I could use your help a little.
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Sure! What’s up?
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I would recommend that Jeffsong read C.S. Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters.
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That is a good idea. C.S. Lewis knows how to debate this on a level like no other.
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Wow Bird! You amaze me every time I read you posts! Thank you for being such a loving person!
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Oh, 1stjoeyanna! Don’t be amazed..it comes from the same Lord you serve!!
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Yep! A very special friend of mine made me the most beautiful rosary! I received in the mail today, and had the greatest reminder of my faith!
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I’m not Catholic, but I have always loved rosaries! They remind me of my great grandmother Nonie… 🙂
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I’m non-denominational too, but I have a great affection for rosaries. Most of my family is Catholic. And it came from someone very special! 🙂
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Good for you!! My mother’s family is Italian and used to be very Catholic. Most of the younger generations now, though, are non-denominational also. I kind of miss the reverence of the Catholic church though.. 🙂 I think I want a rosary!!
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So funny, I’m Italian, and yes, you are right about the younger generation! I did convert to Lutheran, but I don’t like when they all interpret His word in their own ways. So I’m a non-denominational Christian who still loves rosaries! LOL
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LOL!! Two non-denominational Italians who love rosaries…How cool is that? My birthday is coming up a month and a half…guess what I’m going to ask for ??
🙂
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Gee, I wonder? LOL Boy, we do have a lot in common!
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Re: 2889 new emails…
I go through and sort by the name as opposed to date, delete every one that is a comment notification on the same page except for one.
Sort to date again and search for ‘liked’ and delete everyone of them, because you’ll see the likes in the commented pages (i mean what page has no-one commented on?)
It took me just over 2 months to unsubscribe from all those junk emails that I’m interested in but never buy from. I stopped all notifications from social media and will be informed when I have the chance to log in (cut the emails in half)..
Re: Born gay..
IT was proved back in 2007 from genes, bodily growth and brain functions that people were born gay. Further studies later also proved others (Whilst many were choice) were ‘Environmentally Imprinted’ factors that were not by birth, but were still not by choice.
I remember sitting down and reviewing a 13 page paper to ensure it was unbias from a studying science student and a devout Christian. You could read the struggle in his acceptance of something he quoted from one of his preists(or something) the “Elton John will go to hell because he is gay.”
His scientific conclusion led to that that “The judgement from the human race is a sin more frowned upon than that of a unpreventable symptoms, and only God will know the truth in which homosexual and the only judgement that should be made, should be from God himself.” (not quoted word for word, it’s been 2 years since I read it, but it’s close enough)
Keeping in mind that though the cases also proved that a percentage were by choice, it was lower than the latter which were not a choice.
Those were the facts presented to me, later he quoted Thomas Aquinas as I habded him back the paper. “Every judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that he who acts against his conscience always sins. ”
To which I replied “Judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement”… “We can go for a drive this weekend and go to a gay bar where you can express your opinions freely, or we can go fishing like planned and we talk about fish.”
“The fish won’t judge me in return, at least not directly.”
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John,
I’m going to have to do what you did..this email stuff is making me crazy. Thanks for the suggestion.
As for being born gay — I hope I did not give the impression that I think all gay people are going to hell. I absolutely do not think that at all.
God said not to judge each other because we don’t know each others hearts. I take this to mean that we don’t know the genetics, environmental factors, etc. that lead a person to do what they do. Jesus does.
They”re finding out now that there are a lot of sins that people may be genetically prone to…addiction, stealing, lying, etc. Are all these okay, too, because we are genetically inclined to do them?
The bible says that those who accept Christ are saved. From that time on, we spend our lives being refined, like gold, and different sins are addressed by God. In the end, when we die, we are still filthy with sins. Only when we are separated from this flesh will we truly be completely sin-free.
I don’t really understand how people ignore I Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; Ephesians 5:3, or Leviticus 18:22, which clearly tells us what God thinks of homosexuality. Is it that people want to tell God to change His mind? Is it the creation telling the Creator He is wrong?
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1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God
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Ugh my phone pisses me off some times…
1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Romans 12:17-21 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (18) If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. (19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
^^
All also tells us what God thinks of Judgement.
There are many parts where the lord also says that women shall hold their tongue.
Ie, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
or
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
How far do we take these words of the Lord and what do we deem as sin?
I usually do not get into religious arguements stating what is right and what is wrong, what is translated correctly or not. It truly changes the opinions of people
Out of the 80 books (66 in the english version) which should Christians truly follow? Should Christians pick out what they deem is suitable for todays society, what suits our life style? Or should Christians truly accept the traditional ways? Which leads every argument (without debunking a religion) to know it is never our place to judge those fellow brothers and sisters of the same faith, other faiths or no faith faith. But it is truly only the Lord’s place to know where the judgement shall lay, and to judge (make God’s decision?) of others, is it the creation telling the Creator who is worthy or not?
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PS. I really respect your stance, and I don’t think less or better of your because of your POV and I genuinely enjoy these conversation / debates, win or lose because I learn more…
It’s the tunnel teachings of all religions that gets to me… That and religion is a touchy subject, It is nearly as bad on debating whether or not a way of parenting is the right way.
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I respect you asking questions and I don’t mind when people question my religion..I learned a long time ago that God can handle His own credentials. That being said, I think I’ll write a post that truly reflects what I, Bird, think about homosexuality and judgments made against those that struggle with this. That way, you can see that I would never judge anyone about what they struggle with…I’ll even dedicate it to you…lol. The Bible is clear on it’s stance about this, but it is also clear about what was done to purge us from ALL of our sins, this one included… 🙂
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And a beautiful sad post it was, thanks for sharing.
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I wrote this for you and a couple of my other readers…I hope this makes how I feel clear.. 🙂
https://birdmartin.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/how-important-is-sin-when-you-love-someone/
I wish only the good things for people…all people!
— bird
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My goodness, over 2000 emails?! I don’t think I could cope if I had 20 unread. I’m lucky enough to have emails sent to my phone so I don’t miss any.
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My phone would never shut up if I did that. I am going through them now and trying to find a system for dealing with them. 🙂
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Just once a day, as you’re about to go to bed, check through them and sort them out! Haha
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You’re absolutely right!
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I understand about all the emails. But when I do find time to read them, it’s like Christmas and I’m opening all these beautiful presents!
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You are absolutely right. I’m getting pretty caught up now, though it took me almost all night!!
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I know! It’s like, OK, I can read just five more, no fifty more. Make that 250 more!
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